tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post8569879230665767617..comments2023-10-04T08:13:56.965-04:00Comments on redjenny: Guilt, Privilege and the Pain of Living in a World of DominationRed Jennyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07720489192755635941noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-69129121396795904362007-08-07T09:50:00.000-04:002007-08-07T09:50:00.000-04:00This post of yours inspired a post of my own (in p...This post of yours inspired a post of my own (in part), just thought I'd mention it and give credit where credit is due.DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-56407839772803993342007-07-14T23:09:00.000-04:002007-07-14T23:09:00.000-04:00being a 'white' middle class, educated woman, I've...being a 'white' middle class, educated woman, I've long recognized, during my private moments, that I'm far better off [class-wise, financially, in general privileged ways I'm sure I don't even perceive] than 99+% of the people who've ever lived.<BR/>yet, when a man talks down to me, when I struggle to pay my bills, when I don't feel safe on the street after dark--even in a pretty safe part of two crowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14289442473441279230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-15728434101674445322007-07-10T20:25:00.000-04:002007-07-10T20:25:00.000-04:00jeez what an asshat.i dunno how many times "privil...jeez what an asshat.<BR/><BR/>i dunno how many times "privilege is relative" needs to be explained...<BR/><BR/>some people just don't get it. don't want to, is my guess. too much invested in hegemonic power structures, perhaps.<BR/><BR/>whatever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-34050150804137011792007-07-08T19:08:00.000-04:002007-07-08T19:08:00.000-04:00Well, thanks for stopping by.Well, thanks for stopping by.Red Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720489192755635941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-68409650011267188672007-07-08T14:38:00.000-04:002007-07-08T14:38:00.000-04:00You say that I have not read your post and am argu...You say that I have not read your post and am arguing against a straw man. I have read your post. I am wondering if you have read mine. Let me make this really simple for you, because you just don't seem to be grasping my points. You are saying that your friend is privileged because he is a white male. I am saying he is not. I am saying that labeling him privileged simply because of sex and race Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-50428588900049220032007-07-08T12:54:00.000-04:002007-07-08T12:54:00.000-04:00Yet again, jeolimos, I say you might actually read...Yet again, jeolimos, I say you might actually read what I wrote because you'll see you're simply arguing against a straw man, not what I actually said. I'm not denying intersectionality - indeed it is central to my understanding of the issue. Just because privilege and oppression can't always be fit into neat boxes doesn't mean they don't exist. <BR/><BR/>Remember, too, that many forms of Red Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720489192755635941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-81074854646334060742007-07-08T12:24:00.000-04:002007-07-08T12:24:00.000-04:00To 'thinking' girl,I'm not being an asshole, I'm s...To 'thinking' girl,<BR/><BR/>I'm not being an asshole, I'm simply treating you people with the respect you deserve.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that I do understand the 'arguments' made with respect to privilege which is why I am able to give such a valid criticism of it. However, the circular argument made in the OP is so bad that a discussion of privilege is really unnecessary to defeat it. You cannotAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-87843176367690930382007-07-08T08:14:00.000-04:002007-07-08T08:14:00.000-04:00stop being such an asshole, jeolimos. I know you p...stop being such an asshole, jeolimos. I know you probably think that you and your argument are quite brilliant, but unfortunately I think Jenny is right - you don't really understand the argument that she presented, and that others have also supported - others who, I'm quite certain, are likely smarter and more educated about this than you. <BR/><BR/>As I pointed out in the comment directly aboveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-17919175677061057222007-07-07T23:55:00.000-04:002007-07-07T23:55:00.000-04:00Wow, that was a really pathetic response. I know M...Wow, that was a really pathetic response. I know Marxists are good at skirting difficult issues, but you didn't even try to offer any sort of rejoinder. I guess I shouldn't expect anything better, after all the facts are not on your side. You probably realize this and have wisely chosen to avoid engaging in anything resembling a defense of your position. Again, this is wise as your position is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-71596132183690838892007-07-07T23:25:00.000-04:002007-07-07T23:25:00.000-04:00Hi KC, I do agree that it is multidimensional, but...Hi KC, I do agree that it is multidimensional, but when we can see patterns of harm we should do what we can to correct them. Every individual's life is a complex interwoven mesh of both oppression and privilege. But as TG says, in order to really get it, you have to imagine all else being equal. So think about your "ugly poor white male whose parents never read to him as a child, who was bulliedRed Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720489192755635941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-77161986924689016892007-07-07T21:57:00.000-04:002007-07-07T21:57:00.000-04:00What an absolute load of unthinking garbage.I thin...What an absolute load of unthinking garbage.<BR/><BR/>I think this quote sums up your whole post:<BR/><BR/>"yes there is privilege, if you don't see it it's because you don't have to (your denial proves your privilege and dominance, which is maintained precisely because of its invisibility to those who possess it), there's nothing more to discuss."<BR/><BR/>This line of 'reasoning' is wholly Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-14384230233506606762007-07-07T21:40:00.000-04:002007-07-07T21:40:00.000-04:00Hey Jennyvery thoughtful post, and comments. my pe...Hey Jenny<BR/><BR/>very thoughtful post, and comments. <BR/><BR/>my perspective is that everything is relative, and everything is constructed, and we often cannot see past our own perspectives. I tend to think along the lines of the common philosophical point, <I>all else being equal</I>. So, when everything but one factor affecting identity is the same, such as both persons are poor, white, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-20180176648488386992007-07-07T12:11:00.000-04:002007-07-07T12:11:00.000-04:00My perspective: white, male, fat, not very good lo...My perspective: white, male, fat, not very good looking, very poor.<BR/><BR/>Stereotypes into which I fit easily: none.<BR/><BR/>Positions on rights: have always supported equal rights for Women and minorities. Supporting equal rights tor the LGBT community took longer, but I got there.<BR/><BR/>As long as we see each other as groups, there will be friction and stereotyping. Seeing each other TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11397335545286040472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-48267052688402112782007-07-06T18:37:00.000-04:002007-07-06T18:37:00.000-04:00I think your friend has a point. I know as a worki...I think your friend has a point. I know as a working class kid that i have had far more barriers to social mobility than all the rich kid women you get at my university and thats despite living in patriarchy. Its something that really gets pushed way to the margins your side of the atlantic in leftie discourse: the issue of classAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-14417138675300278552007-07-05T12:21:00.000-04:002007-07-05T12:21:00.000-04:00As I've commented on your blog before I just think...As I've commented on your blog before I just think that "privilege" is far too complex and nuanced for blunt policies based on generalizations about privilege and predjudice based on race/gender/etc to actually increase justice and fairness. "Privilege" is so multidimensional. Whatever privilege one might have vis-a-vis another because they are white and male (two factors that are considered inKChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932623568330893522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-13423851825131582502007-07-05T10:34:00.000-04:002007-07-05T10:34:00.000-04:00Not "the fact," of course, but "the claim."Not "the fact," of course, but "the claim."Dr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-10279152805556932572007-07-05T10:33:00.000-04:002007-07-05T10:33:00.000-04:00I'm OK with making allies, usually pretty good at ...I'm OK with making allies, usually pretty good at doing it in my former line of work, and recognize that one has to be strategic about confronting these things. I would argue that privilege is a conjuncture of class, "race" and gender, and hence individuals will be placed at different rungs of the ladder. The young man in question doesn't have to be confronted, but long discussions might be Dr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-50452888807575416032007-07-05T09:55:00.000-04:002007-07-05T09:55:00.000-04:00Very interesting comments. I've been feeling a bit...Very interesting comments. I've been feeling a bit disenchanted lately, largely sparked by some of the vitriole we saw flying around the Aboriginal Day of Action last week. My concern with this post was not about proving the existence of privilege and oppression, which of course exists. My concern was more about how to draw allies. So, Dawg, the privileges you list are all true, of course, but Red Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720489192755635941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-25738505139184065052007-07-05T09:30:00.000-04:002007-07-05T09:30:00.000-04:00I want to add that the problem with priviledge is ...I want to add that the problem with priviledge is that the term implies that some have it and others don't. It is not what white men have that is the problem so much as what everyone else is denied. Obviously the two are linked, but sometimes I think too much focus is given to what white men or whatever priviledged group has, versus giving the same to others.<BR/><BR/>Also, just read 'The Age Chris Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00402945887045545024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-61317223689071629342007-07-05T08:44:00.000-04:002007-07-05T08:44:00.000-04:00This was a thoughtful and excellent post, RJ. As ...This was a thoughtful and excellent post, RJ. As a white male, also from a not great economic background, also with what most lefties would consider progressive politics, I too feel that hurt when people reject me because of my assumed priviledge. <BR/><BR/>My perspective is that I do have certain priviledges that are based on being a white male, of a certain age as well, culturally christian -Chris Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00402945887045545024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-60634017492089719902007-07-05T08:25:00.000-04:002007-07-05T08:25:00.000-04:00I mostly agree with Dr Dawg, although I'm not actu...I mostly agree with Dr Dawg, although I'm not actually sure that your friend "needn't worry about being in certain areas of town after dark;" it depends on the part of town.<BR/><BR/>But I think there's another problem here, which your post is more or less circling: that privilege varies widely on the individual level. Most of what we think about how power and privilege operate in society That guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254412890551965391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8219664.post-22874482076842526862007-07-04T19:45:00.000-04:002007-07-04T19:45:00.000-04:00In brief: neither sexism nor racism exist on a lev...In brief: neither sexism nor racism exist on a level playing field. They're not just about attitude: they're about power. Funny how we subjugate a "race" or a gender--and then we whine about "colour-blindness" or "gender-blindness" when the subjugated ask for rectification. <BR/><BR/>Your young white male needn't worry about being in certain areas of town after dark; need never worry about (hisDr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.com